Have your say & ask the experts

bigblue235 - no-one wasted your time. you had a job to do.

people look down on retailers because (the flip side to your commission argument) they want to sell. they care not what or to whom.

many people browse. most people who go into a shop every day will be doing just that.

whats better, that someone asks the right questions and gets good answers, or that they buy a turkey that they later want to return as its...well...rubbish? You see, service (information to begin with) and sales do go hand in hand.

Do all staff at consumer electronics stores care passionately about me getting the best product for me?

No, they dont.

I think you've taken all this rather personally and that you're defending people who, mostly, are'nt worthy of your efforts.

fr0g:

Nonsense. I look around shops all the time with no idea if I'm gonna buy anything, is that suddenly a crime?

It's far from "nonsense".  No, it's not a crime, but not all things that are legal are fair. 

Having no idea if you're going to buy something is one thing. Going in with the intention to, as you stated, use the facilities then check the web when you get home, is quite another. 

Well I don't advocate taking assistants time, rather go and LOOK. I can't see much wrong with that.

Nowt wrong with that, on it's own. But that's not what you said you did

I don't know what world you live in

What world I live in? Oh, come on  I'd hope it's a slightly less hypocritical one than many high st browsers/internet buyers inhabit.

but in the one I come from, you don't get charity at work, and you don't earn something for nothing

Something for nothing? What, like the look at the gear that you go and buy off the net? If the web retailer had a showroom for you to go and look, they'd be more expensive. So you are getting something for nothing, you're getting free use of a showroom, even though that showroom doesn't have a chance of getting anything back. Best of both worlds for you, and unfair on the retailer.

People seem to have this misconception that browsing doesn't cost a retailer anything, and it's waaaaay off  

al7478:

bigblue235 - no-one wasted your time. you had a job to do.

I think I know if people wasted my time or not, ta!  Just because I was working, that doesn't mean my time was free. It's not a case of since I'm there it doesn't matter what I do. People that came in the shop with no intention of ever spending a dime with us were time wasters, pure and simple. If I hadn't been dealing with these folk, I could have been working in other ways to put money in the till. 

Some retail sectors, such as the one that I was in, have a ridiculous amount of customers who are never going to buy anything. Not a thing. We had guys taking 2-3 hours of our time, trying products that they had no intention of ever buying. How do I know? Because we had an account on one of the related forum websites, and we'd watch numerous discussions taking place about how best to exploit our demo room, best times to come in etc. Then afterwards, people would post their results, and discuss where else to pick up the item we'd specced for them. Usually they'd buy from an internet warehouse, trading parts of related forums, or eBay! Very common in my trade, and I'd guess very common in other hobby related trades too.

Please consider this: Without all these time wasters, we could have easily have done with one less member of sales staff. At our average margin, we had to take in round about £1000 p/w in takings for each salesperson. That's how much turnover we needed to make enough profit to cover a £300 weekly wage. If the % of buyers to browsers was the same in our store as in your average high st store, we could have saved that £300 every week, meaning an extra 15k p/a profit. That's a big deal to a little shop!

people look down on retailers because (the flip side to your commission argument) they want to sell. they care not what or to whom.

That's a bit of a gross generalisation. Many shops, and many sales assistants, care about their job. People seem to presume that shop assistants just want to sell whatever they can, to whoever they can. Maybe some do, but not all. At most retail training it's hammered into the staff that repeat business is the lifeblood of a retail business, and you dont get that without giving decent attention the first time round.

Of course, there will be many staff who don't act the way they should, and give atrocious service, but that's not because they're a salesperson, that's because they're a poor salesperson. If I came across a store where poor service was the norm, I wouldn't set foot in it again. If I'm choosing not to use them, I won't instead use them for a purpose that's advantageous to me, I just won't use them at all. 

many people browse. most people who go into a shop every day will be doing just that. whats better, that someone asks the right questions and gets good answers, or that they buy a turkey that they later want to return as its...well...rubbish?

Nope, nowt wrong with that. If you browse, and give the retailer a chance of that sale, if they're not good enough it's all well and good to take your business elsewhere. I would. But using that retailers facilities without them having a hope of making a sale is what I find unfair.

You see, service (information to begin with) and sales do go hand in hand. Do all staff at consumer electronics stores care passionately about me getting the best product for me? No, they dont. I think you've taken all this rather personally and that you're defending people who, mostly, are'nt worthy of your efforts.

I'm not taking this personally at all, I just find it interesting debate  I've worked in various parts of the trade, from work experience to buyer, and considered consultancy before getting out, so I know a wee bit about all this stuff. Well... more than I know about hi-fi anyway!

As I said, I competed against the multiples for the best part of 15 years, so I spend a fair proportion of that time trying to convince people why it was better to buy from me. But at the same time, if someone wanted to go into a shop and pick up something for the best price, then I didn't have a leg to stand on. The multiples have their place, and their punter, or else they wouldn't do so (frustratingly) well!

In those 15 years I gained a fairly strong impression that the vast majority of customers don't have a clue about how a retail business is run, and it seems that the the same, fairly consistent, misconceptions are the same nowadays. There's more of them on Hotukdeals and the like, but I digress... [;0]

Anyway, I shall stop rambling, and will instead quietly curse specialist trading on the net Yours sincerely, Granville.

The Web has a lot to answer for and there will always be people that will go to a store, demo and buy off the Web. Not good cricket and I think many would agree. Personally, I would still like to see big stores like Comet close and the trade shift to smaller dealers. There would be more smaller dealers and the competition would be strong. Most people can access enough 'high street' to search out a good price and the competition would keep prices to a reasonable level.





fr0g is right in that some sales people are poor and out for themselves. I went to a used car supermarket and wanted to test drive the Megane 1.9tdi and 1.6 petrol to decide which was more suitable. I was promptly told to go to a Renault dealer, test drive cars that they provision for such activity and then to come back and buy. Absurdity! After a debate about the car purchasing process I just went somewhere else. I stated that part of the reason for going to such a supermarket with their higher prices was to get good service. Pah.





Any shop has to be prepared for browsers and in many instances it makes a place look busy and popular; who eats at an empty restaurant? Another instance of poor service was when a hi-fi tradesman practically dragged me into his demo room to hear a CDP I didn't want to hear, proceeded to change it for the next one up at double my budget and then tried to persuade me to credit card it. To top it off he wouldn't shut up about how fit one of the Black Eyed Peas was. The retail trade is a two way street and there are bad buyers and bad sellers.

meh. so im the only one guilty of gross generalizations, and all customers are just dumb idiots.

if i go into a store and they have something im interested in, im sure as eggs is eggs gonna check it out. if, then, some part of the buying process makes me uncomfortable, or its just not financially viable, but it might be elsewhere, im going elsewhere.

as you have conceded, a business of the kind in question needs people in the store.

some of us are a little less technically minded than others. and also more time, and less cash, rich. the retail process can be quite trying for those people, but my money is as good as anyone's and, and im not about to be patronised by retailers like you.

have a nice day.

al7478:

meh. so im the only one guilty of gross generalizations

Not the only one, but you are guilty of it...

 and all customers are just dumb idiots

I never said that, I said the majority of them don't know how a retail business runs. Problem with that is that they're always full of ideas about what's "right" in a shop, and they're not shy of stating their ideas, which are, almost always, wrong. I wouldn't dream of telling any company or service I use how to run their business, but enthusiasts of any type of thing seem to think because they know the product, they know the business.

but my money is as good as anyone's

I've no doubt it is, but can you not see there's two sides to this? If you're part of the brigade who use high st stores simply as showrooms, then your time wasting will be as costly as anyones too. If the shop don't actually get a fair chance at your money, then your money is no good to them, as they'll never get it. If you give them a chance of your money, but they're not good enough to get it, that's a totally different matter.

and, and im not about to be patronised

You gave your side, and included statements I found patronising such as "no one wasted your time. you had a job to do". I replied in a reasonable (if lengthy!) manner. I disagreed with you, that's all.

by retailers like you

I don't get that statement?

have a nice day.

And you.

Before this gets silly... Can I assume we agree on the following...

Its a bit off to purposely use the assistance of any shop knowing you have no intention to purchase.

If the assistance in the shop is not knowledgable about the product they are trting to sell, it is not in the slightest bit off to go elsewhere

There is nothing wrong with 'looking around' a shop whether you intend to purchase or not.

In the end I think we're arguing about nothing.

igglebert:

The Web has a lot to answer for and there will always be people that will go to a store, demo and buy off the Web. Not good cricket and I think many would agree. Personally, I would still like to see big stores like Comet close and the trade shift to smaller dealers. There would be more smaller dealers and the competition would be strong. Most people can access enough 'high street' to search out a good price and the competition would keep prices to a reasonable level.

Fair comment, really nice to see there are others out there that agree it's a wee bit unfair. I too would love to see many more smaller dealers, but there will always be people who don't want service, just lower prices. There's a place in every market for box-shifters, and if there a big place shifting boxes, they'll be cheaper, purely on volume discount from manufacturers. 

The big problem is that Comet and the like often do surveys on their website, and there's usually a section saying something along the lines of "rate how important these factors are from 1-10". The results of those things make depressing reading. Almost everyone rates price as being the most important, then choice, then location. Service is usually in the bottom half. So big outlets will only start rating service as important when the punters start rating it as important.

fr0g is right in that some sales people are poor and out for themselves. I went to a used car supermarket and wanted to test drive the Megane 1.9tdi and 1.6 petrol to decide which was more suitable. I was promptly told to go to a Renault dealer, test drive cars that they provision for such activity and then to come back and buy. Absurdity! After a debate about the car purchasing process I just went somewhere else. I stated that part of the reason for going to such a supermarket with their higher prices was to get good service. Pah.

Yeah, I totally understand that. If you give them a shot at the sale, and they're not good enough, vote with your feet.

Any shop has to be prepared for browsers and in many instances it makes a place look busy and popular; who eats at an empty restaurant? Another instance of poor service was when a hi-fi tradesman practically dragged me into his demo room to hear a CDP I didn't want to hear, proceeded to change it for the next one up at double my budget and then tried to persuade me to credit card it. To top it off he wouldn't shut up about how fit one of the Black Eyed Peas was. The retail trade is a two way street and there are bad buyers and bad sellers.

Yeah, no doubt, great to see you appreciate there are bad buyers, many folk don't. 

But there's a bit of a difference between browsers and time wasters. I don't mind if someone is open to buying something, and they come in every day. Not a problem. But people that are only using your premises as a showroom are a real, expensive, problem. We often spent an hour or two with someone, gave them a cuppa, the whole 9 yards, only for them to say at the end "You've been so nice that I feel really guilty, but I can get it £x cheaper on the web". In many cases they'd already bought something, so were just using us as a demo centre before their distance selling period had expired!

fr0g:

Before this gets silly... Can I assume we agree on the following... Its a bit off to purposely use the assistance of any shop knowing you have no intention to purchase. If the assistance in the shop is not knowledgable about the product they are trting to sell, it is not in the slightest bit off to go elsewhere There is nothing wrong with 'looking around' a shop whether you intend to purchase or not. In the end I think we're arguing about nothing.

Well said that man.

If a shop give you bad service, they shouldn't get your money. But if you know beforehand they won't get your money, you shouldn't be in that shop Fair enough?!

I think we're all on the same page :-) It's interesting to discuss though. I certainly like to hear other sides of the debate!

bigblue235:

fr0g:

Before this gets silly... Can I assume we agree on the following... Its a bit off to purposely use the assistance of any shop knowing you have no intention to purchase. If the assistance in the shop is not knowledgable about the product they are trting to sell, it is not in the slightest bit off to go elsewhere There is nothing wrong with 'looking around' a shop whether you intend to purchase or not. In the end I think we're arguing about nothing.

Well said that man.

If a shop give you bad service, they shouldn't get your money. But if you know beforehand they won't get your money, you shouldn't be in that shop Fair enough?!

Almost. I have no issues popping into my local Siba ( A bit like Currys in Sweden) to look at the size of a camera (say) on display, before buying it online.
On the other hand, if I were to take up the time and (hopefully) expertise of an assistant, knowing the same I would feel I was being a little cheeky.

The chances are anyway I end up buying some batteries, or a sale DVD anyway half the time!

I'm sorry, i was a bit harsh, but your attitude is a bit "customer? Wada they know?", which i object quite strongly too. That said, repeat, no one was wasting your time. there are other jobs if youre not happy in the one you are/were in.

You also hit a nerve (not entirely your fault, i grant), beause i cant afford much, and if i really want something im likely to try and get it cheaper if possible, regardless of whether i have demoed it elsewhere.

Now, i dont feel completely untroubled by that, and i am waiting to make my next major hifi purchases, amp and speakers probably, to go with whatever my source is at the time, until i have about 1k to spend, first hand, so i can actually treat myself to the experience of going to some dealers and demoing, and being able to put the money on the counter if im impressed with the gear and its in budget. I denied myself that experience last time by rushing to get stuff off ebay, and regret it, as you give yourself a false impression of where you are that way.

But i think idigress. Sorry.

I think i pretty much agree with fr0g.

al7478:

I'm sorry, i was a bit harsh, but your attitude is a bit "customer? Wada they know?", which i object quite strongly too.

I'm sorry if I came across harshly too, it really wasn't my intention. I enjoy a debate about this sort of stuff, and I have a bit of insight from being on both sides of the counter, so I do drone on a bit

But anyway, the attitude I'm expressing in this thread is with regard to bad customers, not all customers. In much the same way as some of you are expressing an attitude towards bad salespeople. Surely you can accept it's a two way thing?

That said, repeat, no one was wasting your time.

You can repeat it as much as you like, I'll still disagree

So someone comes into the store, and for an hour or two, I attend to them trying something out. Afterwards, they either tell me they have no intention whatsoever of buying from me, maybe that they actually already have the item, or I later read that person commenting on a forum on how he got a great demo session, and how he's going to look out for the recommended item on ebay. Not time wasting? Of course they are.

there are other jobs if youre not happy in the one you are/were in.

I was perfectly happy in that trade, but I got as far as was possible without living half my life away from home, so got out. I could tell you many happy stories related to a life in retail, but that's not what we're discussing here! I'm sure there will be aspects of your profession that you're not happy with?

 You also hit a nerve (not entirely your fault, i grant), beause i cant afford much, and if i really want something im likely to try and get it cheaper if possible, regardless of whether i have demoed it elsewhere. Now, i dont feel completely untroubled by that, and i am waiting to make my next major hifi purchases, amp and speakers probably, to go with whatever my source is at the time, until i have about 1k to spend, first hand, so i can actually treat myself to the experience of going to some dealers and demoing, and being able to put the money on the counter if im impressed with the gear and its in budget.

I sympathise with that as I can't afford much either. After taking a bit of a career break, I became ill. Nowt too serious, but I'm currently unable to work. But even though I don't have much to spend, I do value where I put it. I bought a TV from John Lewis as I got fantastic service from them. There was a dealer a mile away who were slightly cheaper, but I'd had poor service from them in the past, so I paid the extra to give the person in JL the sale. JL gave me the demo, JL gave me service, and JL made sure I was happy. Maybe you would have been able to walk away at that point, but I just couldn't.

I denied myself that experience last time by rushing to get stuff off ebay, and regret it, as you give yourself a false impression of where you are that way. But i think idigress. Sorry. I think i pretty much agree with fr0g.

That's fair enough. All I'm against is people using a shop purely as a showroom. If you're just popping in to look at something, I can understand that to a point, as there's the chance you may make an impulse purchase while you're there, as fr0g says. Or you may see a deal or whatever. But going into a store and using their facilities knowing you'll never spend anything there, is pretty unfair to me.

Many small businesses have to pay a decent wage, as every salesperson is crucial, compared to the likes of Comet who employ larger teams of staff. Small businesses also get less bulk discount, pay more per sq ft of floorspace etc. etc. And yet they'll still make a lower cut on the products, at more expensive ticket prices than the big multiples. The odds are heavily stacked against them, so doing demos for people that aren't buying genuinely hurts them.

If it was all about price, then everyone would shop at Asda.